Comic Natalie interview with
Yuniko Ayana and Ayano Takeda
2023-09-13
This is a translation of an interview published in Comic Natalie with "BanG Dream!" lead writer Yuniko Ayana and author Ayano Takeda, best known for the "Sound! Euphonium" series of novels. The original was published between episodes 12 and 13 of "It's MyGO!!!!!" and can be found here.
It's gone full horror, I tell you
Yuniko Ayana: I never would have imagined that I’d get to talk to Takeda-sensei, so when I was invited to this discussion, I was completely stunned.
Takeda: Please, it's nothing big.
Ayana: Just this morning, I watched "Liz and the Blue Bird" (Anime movie based on 2-part novel "Hibike! Euphonium Kitauji Koukou Suisougakubu, Haran no Daini Gakushou") again. I might end up saying something inconsiderate or clueless today, but thank you for having me nonetheless.
Takeda:
Ayana: It's like a shadow being cast.
Takeda: But, I loved the story for how real it was. All the down-to-earth relationships were really interesting, they had me nodding along like "Yeah, high school girls are like this, aren't they. I get it, I get it." Kids that age fundamentally lack perspective, don't they?
Ayana: Hu-um.
Takeda: When you want to make up with someone, as an adult you have sound options like taking a step back and taking a broader view of things, or asking yourself "isn't there a better way to handle this?", but the "It's MyGO!!!!!" girls don't have the luxury of such considerations, and wind up desperate. This results in a lot of conflicts, but I think that's great. Also, coming off the 1st season of the anime, I was surprised at the characters being 3DCG.
Ayana: "Bandori!" has been using 3DCG for the characters since the 2nd season. With "It's MyGO!!!!!", our demands regarding the animation have only grown more particular, so it's been enormously helpful for expressions that convey the characters' feelings and such.
Takeda: Their expressions and gestures are great. Soyo (Nagasaki)-chan was particularly striking, from the get-go everything she did was full of hidden implications, though sure enough in an "oh dear" kind of way. Certainly, if you stop to think about it, the things she said were rather strange. But Anon (Chihaya)-chan is odd herself, so they slipped right on past her.
Ayana: It's precisely because they didn't prod into each other that they could get a conversation going.
Takeda: Those two have a particularly favorite exchange of mine. When Soyo-chan says "Without everyone else here..." in front of Anon.
Ayana: Episode 6, when they're going home together, right? After Taki (Shiina)-chan unwittingly vents her feelings on the other bandmembers.
Takeda: That's right. Anon-chan thinks it self-evident that Soyo's "everyone" includes her, but with how things have been going and the general sense of uneasiness, you can tell that by "everyone", she means the prior band she was in with Taki-chan and the others. And then she just goes and says it right in front of Anon... Soyo’s so scary! (laughs) It's gone full horror, I tell you.
Ayana: And because she's so good at hiding her true intentions, Anon-chan still keeps on trusting her.
Takeda: Right! I want to tell her, "Anon, take the hint already!” Even though Soyo is saying what she truly thinks, no one around her understands the real significance. I love that sort of scene. Also, this is a digression, but during the part where Taki-chan stopped coming to practice and lay flat on her school table, the poster hung up above her saying “don’t be late!” was also heartrending. (laughs)
Ayana: “Liz and the Blue Bird” also used posters in its direction.
Takeda: The anime staff builds the direction on little details like that.
With doubts of “is it OK to go all-out on making things serious?”
Takeda: In that spirit, until midway through I watched with an attitude of “You sure are one interesting woman, Soyo-chan!”, but in the latter half, her behavior got so out of hand I started to worry she might be crossing a line past which the audience would no longer be able to forgive her.
Ayana: Right, there’s a thought… I myself have more familiarity with stories that are sweet in nature the way Kasumi-san and friends are, so when we started planning on “It’s MyGO!!!!!”, I struggled with the question of how serious we should make it.
Takeda: Since there’s a risk of alienating the audience.
Ayana: (Bushiroad) Producer Yuki Nemoto requested a slightly heavier drama, so I went into it with the intention of making it serious. Given the opportunity to start from 0, I decided to think back to my private experiences of betrayal and periods of distrust, and convey those feelings through the lens of a band. That’s the root of Tomori (Takamatsu)’s line in episode 1: “Will you keep the band going for our whole lives?”
Takeda: Wow! Scary stuff.
Ayana: However, I wavered over how far I could push the serious tone. In response, Director Koudai Kakimoto set a policy of going all-out, and so even while thinking “is this really OK?”, I kept on throwing myself into it. Even so, when the script for episode 9 took shape and everyone scattered to the winds, I started having thoughts like “can this really become a band?” too. Of course I had made a rough outline of how things would go, but…
Takeda: If all they do is fight, one starts to doubt whether they can actually come together to form a band.
Ayana: That’s what I was anxious about.
Takeda: But their performance in episode 10 was so incredible, it cleared the issue of forgiveness for Soyo right up. Seeing her play the bass with tears in her eyes like that, one would have no choice but to forgive her. It’s as good as concert scenes get, or I should say, the picture it painted moved me deeply.
Ayana: It was amazing, wasn’t it!? Everyone involved, from director and storyboarder Tomomi Umetsu-san onward, was so full of passion. Midori Gotou-san wrote that particular episode for us. After that we placed the order for the song, but at the scenario meeting, the person in charge of the music, who normally doesn’t make the offer, asked “the song is done, would you like to hear it right now?” The moment we heard it, everyone looked like they were about to cry. (laughs)
Takeda: The process of making those songs is quite tough, no? They have to work in perfect lockstep with the scenario, after all.
Ayana: “Utakotoba” must have been particularly difficult, I think. The song alone could bring me to tears…
Takeda: Tomori-chan has such a nice singing voice, too. Also, in regards to episode 10, I found it followed an unusual progression for a band story. Normally, a band would have their concert, it’d be a great success, and they’d get their happily ever after, but in that episode, talk of the performance had to spread gradually, and the level of mobilization increased bit by bit, right? That was also very real.
Ayana: For the series prior to this, I operated on a kind of theory that in performances, feelings become sublimated, and the story settles neatly into shape.
Takeda: But the linchpin of “It’s MyGO!!!!!” is its interpersonal relationships.
Ayana: Right. Even having done the performance, it might not have solved anything, or rather even made things messier.
Takeda: Someone might lash out with “why did you play that song!?” (laughs) And after it had been such a success too, I was shocked.
Ayana: The people who had been following “Bandori!” all the way up to this point must have been particularly surprised.
Takeda: But it’s precisely because there had been so much fighting right from the start that seeing them find resolution in the span of a single song was so incredibly cathartic. I felt like a grandma going “you kids did so great!” (laughs)
Ayana: I feel similarly about Anon and Soyo’s relationship after episode 10, I love it so much.
Takeda: After she drops the “san” from Soyo-san, right? It’s not the relationship of two girls giggling and partying together, but a shoulder-to-shoulder, “we’re in this together” kind of thing. These sorts of relationships do exist between girls, but they rarely get the chance to be featured, so I was especially pleased with this one.
Ayana: Maybe it’s because they’re a band that this type of relationship forms. Being a band doesn’t mean being friends, but rather a team taking on something together. Of course, that’s possible outside of bands, too.
Takeda: It’s not unlike sharing duties at the workplace. Given the adult-esque justification for the characters working together, “Bandori!” always had this whiff of fantasy about it, but the things “It’s MyGO!!!!!” portrays seem like they could happen in reality. It goes without saying, but people sticking with the first band they form practically doesn’t happen, everyone goes through their cycles of coming together and breaking up again.
Ayana: Just hearing you say that makes me glad. Even outside of “Bandori!” I hadn’t written anything hewing this close to reality so far, so it was a major challenge for me, but as a result I now know it’s okay to commit to this extent.
Nuances in writing, and slips of understanding on the receiving end
Ayana: What I was fixated on for season 1 of “Bandori!” was portraying the kinds of vivid conversation that could only happen between girls on the stage of a play. There were people who thought that was wonderful, but there were also those who said they didn’t really understand. When the latter reached my ears, I had to reconsider a lot of things, realizing that “Bandori!” is a work that needs to be able to reach many people. As such, for seasons 2 and 3, I restrained my ego and resolved to make them work for a wide audience. But for “It’s MyGO!!!!!”, I was then able to take the methods I had learned in the process and apply them to writing what I wanted to write, so in a sense I came around full circle.
Takeda: And it certainly reached me. But writing scripts is difficult, isn’t it? Since even for the same kind of conversation-focused drama, in a novel you can throw exposition into the narration rather than relying on dialogue alone.
Ayana: Reading your books, all we find written into the narration is a representation of the overall picture, or more specifically, the characters’ circumstances and gestures. How the reader chooses to interpret that is their business, or rather, there’s a lot of room for imagination.
Takeda: That’s how I like to write, and when you don’t explain too much, readers are surprisingly willing to meet you halfway. Novels have a tendency to overexplain at the best of times, but if I put a limit on what emotions I want the reader to take away too, I just end up erasing any possibility outside of my own thinking.
Ayana: When they’re adapted into an anime, it’s the staff’s interpretation that fills in those margins. I have my own experiences with how vital it is to lock down that interpretation given anime is made by a lot of people, so I’m very aware of this, but… Going from watching the anime to reading the corresponding parts of your books, I realized how much room for different interpretations there actually is.
Takeda: Yeah. Currently, I’m submitting monthly scripts for a manga called “Hana wa Saku, Shura no Gotoku”, and having been told by my editor “please specify the facial expression here”, at first I didn’t quite understand what that was all about. While writing books I had never given thought to minute details of expression, but once you add pictures it’s important to be clear about things. So in addition to stage directions, I also add notes that represent the characters’ emotions, like “(angry)” and “(vague smile)”. In a novel, that method of specifying emotions would be criminal though. (laughs)
Ayana: Over the past few years I’ve been getting those kinds of requests for anime scripts too. I write not just the dialogue, but also the expression and feelings the character is saying it with, to make sure there won’t be any inconsistencies on the receiving end.
Takeda: Slips in nuance happen quite often, don’t they. In “Eupho”, there’s a scene in which then-president Haruka asks Kumiko to list Haruka’s positive qualities, and when all Kumiko does is repeat the ways Haruka is “nice”, she gets hit back with “‘You’re nice” doesn’t mean anything! It’s what you tell someone when there’s nothing else to say!”. My intent in writing it was to keep the tone light at first and then drive it home with a thud at the end. But in the anime, it turned serious all the way through. (laughs) I frequently have to recognize my own sense of things as being off the mark.
Ayana: Season 1 episode 7 is consistently serious from the start, yeah. But if I picture the way you describe it, I can see the intention too. When I go into anime scriptwriting with a particular aim like that, I write it out in advance, and I can have it confirmed at the storyboarding and dubbing stages as well.
Takeda: You have a lot of control, then.
Ayana: Well, the final say lies with the director, so it’s not total. For an example of something that surprised me when I saw the storyboards for “It’s MyGO!!!!!”, it would be Soyo-chan already being shown to have an ulterior motive in episode 2. At the script stage, the policy set by the director was to keep her opening moves concealed still.
Takeda: But you do have to hint at that sort of thing. Otherwise people who just think of Soyo-chan as the sweet and sisterly type are going to have a heart attack midway through.
Ayana: As a result, they now have the option of enjoying the show as a suspense thriller. (laughs)
I like girls who take girls standing in the shadows and pull them out into the light
Takeda: While we’re back to talking about “It’s MyGO!!!!!”, something I want to touch on is that Sakiko (Togawa)-chan is just perfect as far as I’m concerned.
Ayana: I’m happy to hear that. As a viewer I also thought she was wonderful, but while writing I couldn’t really tell how people were going to receive her.
Takeda: But everyone loves Sakiko, don’t they? At present she’s somewhat changed, but I think of her as a good girl who’s like the sun. I figure that Anon also wants to be someone bright who can lead everyone along the way Sakiko was in middle school. So every time I saw Anon decide to give her all for something, I thought: “Sakiko did that back in middle school. She’s so strong!” She kept on flickering into my mind. But now she’s turned out so different… But if the viewers keep on wondering what happened to the previously so bright and warm Sakiko, they’ll probably come to love her too.
Ayana: Thank you so much. Only, that comparison between Anon and Sakiko was not something I was remotely conscious about. (laughs)
Takeda: Really? But then, being able to puzzle together various kinds of relationships like that as you please is part of the fun of being a viewer.
Ayana: If I think about why Anon and Sakiko seem like foils… I like girls who take girls standing in the shadows and pull them out into the light. In middle school, it’s Sakiko who takes on this role, and in high school it’s Anon. That’s why there appears to be some overlap between them, I imagine.
Takeda: There’s certainly overlap in how they relate to Tomori, I think. These sorts of predilections really do find their way into the work. Personally, I like girls who destroy others’ lives through no ill will of their own.
Ayana: Aah, so that’s why you like Sakiko so much. (laughs) I really felt that when I was reading your book “Aisarenakutemo Betsu ni”. Truth is, I’ve been thinking of asking you today whether you have a desire for another woman to make a mess of your life…
Takeda: Thank you for reading that one! I like girls who won’t give themselves to anyone making a mess of things. Because the moment they let anyone have them, they become too vulnerable. And perhaps I have a thing for quasi-religious relationships. The kind where a girl who’s by no means divine or anything arbitrarily becomes someone’s object of worship, but then destroys their life and leaves with only a simple “See, I’m no goddess.”
Ayana: That’s Sakiko right there!
Takeda: And that’s why she’s stuck with me so much. Placing such a heavy burden on a single individual is not a good thing really, but we are talking about personal taste here. (laughs)
Between women, murky and strained is par for the course
Takeda: Writing murky and strained relationships between girls really is fun. They’re my favorite thing. Just look at the paperback of “Tobitatsu Kimi no Se wo Miageru” you brought with you today, it’s a “Eupho” spinoff and yet they do no wind instrument music whatsoever.
Ayana: (laughs)
Takeda: It’s certainly not that I set out to write murky stories, it’s just that when I try to describe someone’s time as a student in a realistic manner, that’s how it turns out. Relationships that are all happy fun times just don’t exist, not in the real world.
Ayana: It’s not your active intention when writing, I understand.
Takeda: I just enjoy those sorts of portrayals. So when I wrote a “Eupho” spinoff story about Rikka high school’s marching band, the places where I really dove head-first into the murk saw a number of responses on Twitter like “this hit way too hard, I stopped dead in my tracks” and “it’s so harsh I can’t keep turning the page, I gave up on reading the 2nd part”.
Ayana: From your readers.
Takeda: Since then, I’ve been keeping conscious of that Rikka high school story as the final line between enjoyment and discomfort. In the sense of, “unless I decide to write something really sordid, I should be careful not to overdo it.” But communication between girls is very immediate for better or for worse, so whether they’re fighting or being affectionate, things are always a whirlwind, I think. So as far as I’m concerned, the things I write are completely ordinary, and at times I find myself wanting to say “You might not think it, but that’s how it is.” (laughs)
—— If you’ll excuse a layman’s question, would you say that kind of immediate relationship is something that can only be written between girls? Would it be difficult to depict as happening between say, a man and a woman, or maybe two men?
Takeda: It’s a difficult question because it’s not keeping with the times to be overly preoccupied with gender, but if I think about it as a depiction of a real male friendship I guess it might feel off. It periodically becomes a topic of discourse, but there’s a tendency for the distance between women to close as their friendship grows, while men become more indifferent toward one another. Like, when they trust one another without needing explanation and know they have each other’s back, that’s a cool male friendship. Maybe it’s because of this difference that when you apply the same kind of relationship to men, there’s people who feel odd about their method of communication. Personally, the thought I take into my writing is that we ought to live in a world where people naturally accept any sort of relationship, regardless of gender or other hangups.
The title “The Only One I Can Trust Is Myself” is a key point
—— By the way, you have both written works with male main characters too, and while of course I figure you put your full effort into those as well, could it be that writing about female main characters gets you more excited?
Ayana: That’s where my soul is.
Takeda: Hahaha. (laughs)
Ayana: Writing women’s relationships is like breathing to me.
Takeda: I also think of it as something I’m stronger at. When writing male characters, I always need to make a round of adjustments internally. Like, “are men going to feel something’s off about my thinking, or is it fine?” This kind of distance always makes for extra intellectual work, whereas girls I can just send out onto the scene like “here you go!” without thinking that hard about it. (laughs) Because even when readers take issue with something, I can just say “that’s normal though” or “I’ve had friends like that.” On the other hand I don’t have a grasp on the finer points of men’s feelings, so there’s a lot of trial and error involved there.
—— There still seems plenty more to talk about, but given the time I will only ask one last question. In regards to further developments in “BanG Dream! It’s MyGO!!!!!”, Ayana-san, please tell us what aspects you’d like the viewers to pay particular attention to, and Takeda-san, what your own expectations are.
Ayana: In episode 12, they finally settled on the band name MyGO!!!!!, but there are still feelings and relationships left unresolved. Can they really keep the band going for their whole lives? I’ve put a lot of thought into questions like that while writing the script, so please keep watching to the end. It turned out chock-full of my favorite things…! (laughs)
Takeda: I’m hoping for Sakiko to play an active role, I suppose. She also gives off a bit of an unsettled air, doesn’t she? (laughs) She’s always playing piano in the music room at school, and obstinately refuses to let anyone into her home, and even though her middle school was the prim ladies’ school Tsukinomori, now she goes to the ordinary prep school Haneoka Girls' High… Whatever happens, I hope Sakiko keeps hanging in there.
Ayana: The title “The Only One I Can Trust Is Myself” is a key point.
